What happened to the Ubuntu community?

[blahboybaz]

It's fine to point out potential problems or even disaster or even to refuse to instruct in something that would ultimately be destructive. I'd say it's the responsible thing to do - the right thing to do. I think it depends on whether a response is "constructive" or not - helpful if you wish - and that's not always the case. If someone shouldn't do something it should come with and explanation - that makes it a learning experience and the person asking will be better off for it even if things don't end up they way they expected. What happens though is that attitude plays a part in interactions (not just on a forum but all forms of communication). When someone is dismissed belittled or even told they shouldn't do something but it comes from a wrong attitude it can be hurtful to the person and the community image. Imho I think that attitude is really at the core of understanding the quality of an interaction. The content of a response can be very similar yet carry a very different connotation. And, most often, the end result isn't the determining factor either. People (most people) want to be treated with respect and decency - among other things - and they appreciate you and what you represent when they are (even if they don't get their way).

[sudodus]

@blahboybaz,

I would like to add one more thing to consider about how attitude plays a part in interactions. I am not a native English speaker, and for that reason may use the wrong word or expression to convey the attitude that would create 'good vibrations'. It applies the other way around too, I do not always feel the attitude that is intended by a person who communicates with me.

Generally, we must remember that there are many users of the Ubuntu Forums who are not native English speakers, and for that reason may use expressions that can be interpreted as unfriendly.

[DuckHook]

In all of my years helping out on these forums, I've run across far too many instances where "pointing out potential problems" is, in and of itself, interpreted as dismissal, belittlement or condescension. While it is the case that some forum helpers respond in short telegraphed passages that risk being interpreted as brusque, it is also the case that many who come seeking help have paper thin skins. Many starting questions are devoid even of details to say nothing of context. And when questions are asked about context, these questions are ignored or met with a curt "it's none of your business".

So it's not simply protecting people from potential harm. With most questions, even the non destructive ones, it is not possible to advise either properly or completely without a clearer understanding of the underlying context.

Perhaps the following illustration might help:

Consider the question:

"What is the best way to get from Alphaville to Zetaville?"

On the surface, this seems like a straightforward question. But the answer is not at all simple. It depends on context: in this case, the larger goals of the questioner. If the goal is:

• the most scenic route, then it is the coastal highway.
• the cheapest route, then it is taking the eight‑lane expressway.
• the fastest route, then it is flying.
• the healthiest route, then it is cycling through back roads.
• the most relaxing route, then it is taking the train.
• the most complete route, then it involves a detour into Betaville for refuelling and a pit stop.

The majority of questions on these forums are of this sort. They have multiple solutions and the "best" one is impossible to determine without probing further and deeper. Often, those seeking help are oblivious as to how ambiguous their questions really are and get huffy because they don't get quick and ready answers to what they assume are easy questions.

The key insight from this illustration is simply the following: many questioners don't understand their real goal. They are stuck on process instead of understanding the larger context. It's easier to think of the how in getting from Alphaville to Zetaville than it is to step back and examine the why. But seasoned Linux veterans have trained themselves to consider the whys. And it is this very hard won training that motivates them to ask: "Why do you want to do that?"

I suppose that this question can come across as arrogant, or condescending or even a slap in the face. I'll be the first to agree that many techies don't have the most refined people skills. That's why they were attracted to tech in the first place. But their probing usually comes from a good place. They want to provide the best result, or at least avoid the worst ones. If they can't help preening a bit, then this is the price we pay for the sort of mind that won't blink in the face of arcane code and the arduous training that must be endured in gaining such expertise.

I'm willing to cut such expertise a lot of slack: it is valuable and it is rare. To me, the benefits of such expertise far outweigh the sharp edges in which it is occasionally packaged. But that's just me.

[1fallen]

I'm willing to cut such expertise a lot of slack: it is valuable and it is rare. To me, the benefits of such expertise far outweigh the sharp edges in which it is occasionally packaged. But that's just me.

+1

I'll start with a *guess* to why this post was started: https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2496170

@blahboybaz you had 3 people there pointing out it was just information that returned from your update/upgrade process.(Nothing to do there)

You seemed to have taken offense to that. Even though I felt I was being in line with CoC.

I struggle to always find the best wording to help others here, not many but it happens.

Now it is your chance to help me, how could I've worded it better for you?

We all have bad days, and lash out at the first face we can latch on to.

But perhaps it's best I just avoid your request for help....which seems counter productive to current thread here...Which direction should I take?

BTW That thread is in my rear view now>>>Moving Forward, Bigger and Better.

[ian-weisser]

Seems like Frustration + Misunderstanding.
A very old tale. Particularly easy to occur when everyone involved has never met.

[blahboybaz]

@blahboybaz,

I would like to add one more thing to consider about how attitude plays a part in interactions. I am not a native English speaker, and for that reason may use the wrong word or expression to convey the attitude that would create 'good vibrations'. It applies the other way around too, I do not always feel the attitude that is intended by a person who communicates with me.

Generally, we must remember that there are many users of the Ubuntu Forums who are not native English speakers, and for that reason may use expressions that can be interpreted as unfriendly.

That makes sense. Personally I try to be sensitive to things like that but I know not everyone is.

[blahboybaz]

While it is the case that some forum helpers respond in short telegraphed passages that risk being interpreted as brusque, it is also the case that many who come seeking help have paper thin skins.

+1

[blahboybaz]

+1

I'll start with a *guess* to why this post was started: https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2496170

@blahboybaz you had 3 people there pointing out it was just information that returned from your update/upgrade process.(Nothing to do there)

You seemed to have taken offense to that. Even though I felt I was being in line with CoC.

I struggle to always find the best wording to help others here, not many but it happens.

Now it is your chance to help me, how could I've worded it better for you?

We all have bad days, and lash out at the first face we can latch on to.

But perhaps it's best I just avoid your request for help....which seems counter productive to current thread here...Which direction should I take?

BTW That thread is in my rear view now>>>Moving Forward, Bigger and Better.

@1fallen

I think there's really several things I should mention.. I started this thread because after being away from the forums for quite a few years I was surprised that the environment (and possibly numbers?) had changed so much. One of the things I talked about in my op in this thread was differences in activity and enthusiasm compared to the way things were years ago. I didn't explicitly say so but that is just my opinion base on my perception of things - I rely on others realizing that and being ok with it. It has to be safe to talk about what you want to or you can't (just a practical observation). I don't know if you saw it but I did apologize and ( I think ) tried to explain that I had made a mistake about what I thought was being said in your response. I explained that once I reread your response that I realize (or at least I think I do) what you were saying. I don't want to fight with anyone but the truth is I'm still uncertain what the real answer was in that thread. Like DuckHook pointed out things can sometimes be ambiguous (even if it doesn't seem like it should be on the surface). I think that applies in both directions (it isn't always the person responding to the question who can be confused). But whether I have closure on that question or not I just chalk it up to a misunderstanding and try to make peace. It's up to the other person how they receive it. While the convo in this thread did take on a couple different directions that other post had little to do with this one - only so much as it got me looking at the stats on other questions and thinking about how incredibly active this forum used to be by comparison - that's about it. Like I mentioned in the other thread I do appreciate the time you took to help me out - I certainly am not entitled to anything - but at the same time I'm not going to grovel. I make mistakes just like anyone else; and, when I become aware of it (if I become aware of it) I try to make it right as best I can. At the end of the day though I don't think its really fair to pigeonhole this thread to a response I regret in another one. If you knew me on a personal level (I mean like if you met me face to face and we hung out together) you'd find out I abhor the thought of offending anyone. I love people. I do hope we can move on and be friends.

[alexwisha]

The world has changed so much

[grahammechanical]

People also grow old and reach end of life support. Names that I saw regularly when I first started reading this forum in 2007 are no longer with us on the forum and I suspect on the planet. I myself was told 14 years ago that I had about a year to live if I did not have a dangerous heart operation. They wanted to stop my heart, cut out a valve and replace it with a mechanical version. And then restart the heart. So, now you know the secret of my forum user name.

Back in those days it seemed that every problem required the running of several commands. Ubuntu has become more useable for the Linux uneducated (like myself). Ubuntu has become very stable over the years.

Regards